And Still more comments from and about Nice Guys...
From: "siggen sigge" (siggenkontakt@hotmail.com)
Subject: nice guys vs bad behaviour
Hello girls!
I’ve read some articles about what you would call the ’nice guy syndrome’.
It interests me, although I think a lot of your conclusions really stink.
Now be warned, I’m Norwegian, meaning I’ll probably make a lot of spelling
errors and soforth… But I’m sure, being as understanding and heartless as
you are, you’ll forgive me. (And I bet I write better English than any of
you write Norwegian)
First of all you might wanna label me a nice guy. I don’t know and I really
don’t care. The truth of the matter is I know what bad confidence is really
all about. Whilst reading some of you’re articles I recognized some of
myself in it. Especially on the part of not having a spine as you might call
it, or dare to speak up for myself. Having this problem, of exaggerated
politeness and modesty, you might get depressed. It does not make things
like this a whole lot easier finding out that people don’t respect you the
way they should. If you don’t get back at people, they tend to take
advantage of this. I really don’t know why it’s such a big thing treating
people thus, but I have no problem labelling this behaviour mischievous
bullying.
What I find problematic about the way you are describing the matter, is that
you are stigmatizing a group of men that has a certain characteristic
behaviour. I.e.: nice guys. The part of the behaviour which is actually
accessible to another person, I guess you are entitled to state as empiric
facts. The problem starts when you claim to have accessibility to persons
good or bad intentions, or actually to be able to read a persons mind. *They
are so transparent etc.* Furthermore I don’t see the character-flaws as you
might call them, really as that bad at all. In the article ‘what is
misogyny’ there is this thing about men being objectifiers. What is wrong
with objectifying women? Woman are being worshipped and placed in centre of
men’s sexual fantasies all the time. Nothing wrong with that I think, not as
such. The real problem starts if you can’t separate between sexual
objectification, and the person behind the centrefold of you’re sexual
fantasies. What it all boils down to is context. Although men might
objectify women in a sexual sense, that does not imply that they have to
dehumanize her or treat her like an object in other respects. The irony of
it all is, women/girls also objectifies men. Girls for example often keep
posters in their bedrooms of male actors or rockstars. Now isn’t that
idolizing, worshipping or objectifying? Or do you actually want to convince
me that they do it ‘cause they are interested in the person behind the
image? What is really the difference? And honestly, if someone turns you
down or doesn’t give you any attention, you’re bound to feel down. This is
human. Although a good self-image is important, we are still dependent on
other person’s approval. What other people think about us affects us,
because we are social creatures, and it hurts to be left out. To shut out
someone, is actually hurting someone. In case you might think it
differently.
Let’s go to the issue of egoism now. This is my favourite subject. In the
article ‘why nice guys are losers’ you claim that nice guys have such bad
self-confidence because they do things for others in order to be liked, and
not simply for the pleasure of giving. I think that is a heap of crap. Not
because it isn’t true, although you don’t know this, you just think you do.
But because there is nothing morally wrong with it. We do things for others
in order to be liked, or in order to boost our self-esteem and so on. So
what? If this is the case, and I think it is in a considerable number of
cases, it is certainly nothing that just defines ‘nice guys’™. This is
normal human behaviour, and in my respect it is perfectly all-right when you
consider the issue thus:
There are three basic ethical systems:
1. altruism; you should sacrifice yourself for the sake of others
2. anti-rational egoism and irrational egoism; you should sacrifice others
for the sake of yourself.
3. and last but not least; rational egoism, you should sacrifice neither
yourself nor others.
If you are well-behaved, it is quite rational to do it for the sake of
yourself, and not of some sort of altruistic motif. You sacrifice no-one. It
gets even worse if you tend to be altruistic, but all in all it is just a
guise for anti-rational egoism. If you are well-behaved towards others,
people are actually obliged to treat you likewise. If they don’t, I
perfectly understand why some men consider themselves victims. This is bad
bad behaviour, and I want have any of it. And yes I do think that people are
indebted to others in the sense of giving them mutual respect, and I don’t
give a flying-burger in what you might think or somehow can read into this
behaviour, or between lines. Whether the person has bad confidence, or even
if he is *shocking isn’t it* a man. Whining, whimpering and embitter ness
tend to be a result of, or a reaction to something. What I find stupid about
this site is that you put all the blame on nice guys alone and use them as
scapegoats when the issue is far more complex than that. People treat each
other badly. Face it. Women treat man badly, face it. This maltreatment has
its consequences, and the nice guy syndrome is one of them. I’m not saying
that these guys are totally irresponsible for they’re own misfortune, but
there are two sides to every story. As far as I’m concerned, you are only
seeing it from a woman’s point of view.
I also find it highly ironic that
political feminism has emphasized male empowerment and the discrimination
against women all these years, and has generally put the blame on society.
But all of a sudden, if a guy is hurting, the blame is altogether his own.
Where are the hierarchic structures that have misled women into misfortune
now? It is hypocritical, and my article’s main objective has been to point
that out.
By the way, you think irony gives you an advantage? Bullocks! Irony is a
certain form of abusing power.
Siggen
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:31:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Coleman (jcoleman4787@sbcglobal.net)
Subject: Hi
I was looking at your website, and I like it. Especially the one about the "Nice Guy" syndrome. I have the double your dating.com e-book, and learned a lot, and I can learn a lot from your site too. I think a way of letting go is to take responsibility.What I'm getting from your site is about what turns women off and why.
I saw a newsletter called, "What women hate most about single guys". The song is called, "Ewww!!"
LLSS,
Jeff
From: "CHAD GEMAR" (rameg74@msn.com)
Subject: Not what I expected
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 00:44:18 -0500
I came across your site through a series of links that started at MSN's
homepage. The first page I hit on HeartlessBitches.com was the "Top Ten Ways
to Fuck Up a Relationship." My ex-girlfriend pretty much did all ten of
those to me. My best friends girlfriend is doing some of them to him now. I
really got a kick out of it and sent it to him and my ex-girlfriend. The
next area I went to was the shop. I saw the stuffed dog with a heart shaped
hole, and I ordered the T-shirt that reads, "I'm not bitter."
At this point I thought the site was a woman bashing site. Sign up and go
off about your own heartless bitch. As I read more I realized I was way off.
Although I didn't know what I was looking at at first, I enjoy reading the
majority of the things you all have to say. I have even gone so far as to
sign up myself. Being single again and dating, a lot of the stuff I read
there hit home for me. I may have been acting a little like the nice guys
you talk about.
Anyway, great site. It's good to get a heartless bitches perspective on
things.
Chad
From: "Lawrence Chu" (lawrence@sandwich.net)
Subject: Another "Nice Guy" comic link you might be interested in...
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 18:18:01 +0200
An artist known as either "EK" or "Big Big Truck" (depending on who you ask)
has a couple of short comics dealing with the subject of "nice guys." At
the bottom of the page are links to two of them, under "The
Sensitive Guy Part 1" and "The
Sensitive Guy Part 2"
BTW: The "Nice Guy" page is one of the best resources on this phenomenon
I've ever seen (granted, I don't actively SEEK pages like this, but...). I
was just linked to it today (through the Something Positive community) and
have been going through it. It was startling to spot a lot of traits listed
in the articles in myself, but at least I know I need to grow a spine, and
it's not some fault on her side that nothing happens.
Mad propz, yo. :)
Lawrence Chu
From: "Steven Leeson" (tigerguy13@hotmail.com)
Subject: Nice Guys vs. Assholes: Why Gays and Chicks are in Love with Dicks
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 02:23:06 -0400
To Whoever Reads This E-mail:
After reading through the articles in the topic concerning so-called "Nice
Guys," I thought that I would, like so many other readers, send an e-mail
expressing my own opinions on the matter. And my opinion... is that the
authors said everything pretty damn well. As a rather "geeky" male, I get
to listen to many other "geeks" whine, bitch, moan, and groan about how
girls are only interested in dating assholes. As a rather gay "geeky" male,
I get to listen to it from the more, dare I say "feminine," viewpoint. I
don't want a boy who's going to worship the ground I walk on. I don't want
a boy who is going to leave everything to me, claiming that it is because he
is "so in love." I don't want a boy so clingy and obsessive that he needs
an ego boost after every breath. Self-assuredness is a turn-on. I'd rather
have a man who knows that I'm into him, and also knows just what I'm looking
for.
I think that the cause all really boils down to this: Many "Nice Guys"
are under the impression that every relationship started is an attempt to
settle down for life.
Sometimes it's just fun to date somebody, to have a
relationship with that person knowing that it isn't forever. Yes, when I
date, I am looking for love. I'm always open to finding my soulmate. But I
also like to go out and have fun with a guy for a few weeks without worrying
about that. Yes, sad, clingy, little Jimmy may have an obvious crush on me;
and yes he agrees with everything I say. But sexy, confident Johnny has the
guts to ask me out; and that really makes all the difference. People are
wrong: The size of a man's penis is unimportant. What matters is how big
his balls are.
Sincerely,
Steven Leeson
From: "Steve Spalding" (steven@timocracyonline.com)
Subject: Link, Article, Whatever.
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:14:04 -0400
Submitting an article that you may want to check out. It has been said before, but I don't think it can ever be said too many times. Thanks.
"The Myth of the 'Nice Guy' "
Steve
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